hope and hopelessness

tobitastic:

(Note: indentation of differing responses got messed up, the below constitute my original post, two responses from meliass, and my response)

idothisallthetime:

meliass:

gcvsa:

ericaorion:

tobitastic:

…

I mean, we can all hang out in our all-genders spaces.  I’ll volunteer to keep them going, my partner can bring a batch of hir awesome cupcakes.  But whether we are talking about a dyke march, a women’s conference, or localized feminist organizing, exerting external force to dismantle or destroy women’s spaces is never anything but misogynistic.  And taking away an important resource from trans women is the truly transphobic act in this situation.

this is so fucked up - how is this ANY different from excluding trans women?

so because trans men want to be men, they don’t deserve a safe space?  trans men don’t receive cis male privilege, you know.  just COMING to a women’s only space puts them at a vulnerable position, outing themselves to the entire community of cis and trans women.

Wait, um… if it’s a women’s only space and we’re talking about a trans man, then his attending doesn’t out him as trans unless there is a special exemption for trans men.  If there is no special exemption, his attending only outs him as a jerk - same as any cis guy who attended.

safe spaces should be for cis women and any trans* person who wants access. 

where else are trans men going to be in a safe space?

Maybe in trans men’s spaces?  Or men’s spaces that are trans inclusive.  Or trans spaces.  Or queer trans men can be in queer spaces.  Trans men of color can be in POC spaces.  Young trans men can be in youth spaces or trans youth spaces.  Do I need to go on?

i guess i understand a trans* only space but.. that is literally the only place that trans men would be allowed. should queer/nonbinary people also be excluded from women’s only spaces?

You’re shifting the ground of my argument.  I am not saying that all community spaces should become women only so that men aren’t allowed anywhere.  Re-read my final paragraph above.  What I am saying is that the few trans friendly women’s spaces that exist should not be dismantled.  For inclusion of non-binary folks, look at what I’ve already written about it. That’s not what this post is about, it’s about trans men.

I’ll emphasize that when I throw events or plan protests, I consciously think about making space for trans men.  I am generally known as THE trans woman making queer/feminist porn focusing on trans women - and I’ve made sure to always include trans men in each of my films and even made a film focusing on trans men.  There’s much more trans men focused queer porn out there and for the vast majority of it there is no reciprocal effort to include trans women.  There is no risk of queer and trans spaces that include trans men suddenly disappearing because a play party or a dyke march decides to be for women only - without exception for trans men.  In fact, I still see many queer and trans spaces that include trans men but are not so welcoming of trans women.  And when trans women are excluded from *women’s* events, *women’s* colleges, and *women’s* shelters while men are welcomed, then we have a problem.  Continued insistence that trans men belong in these spaces is dependant on the argument that trans men are somehow less men than cis men are.  Relying on “socialized gender” or pre-transition history only gives credence to the exact arguments that are being used to deny trans women access.

Let’s not forget that there do exist men’s spaces that are welcoming of trans men.  (In fact, I don’t think I can think of four equally prominent women’s spaces that include trans women.)  Maybe you should support those men’s spaces rather than trying to dismantle women’s spaces that are welcoming of trans women.  If you don’t want to be a part of those spaces because you’re genderqueer, then be a part of the myriad of genderqueer or queer spaces out there rather than trying to dismantle any other gendered spaces.

i don’t understand why trans men can’t speak on women’s issues if they want to - they still have experience with living as women & being treated as women.  wanting to be/living as a man shouldn’t disqualify their voices.  with trans women, having once been living as/treated like a man shouldn’t disqualify their voices, either.

It’s still different to have been a man who was living as and treated as a woman than it is to be a woman who has.  No, that doesn’t disqualify your voice, but why do you have to show up to a women only sex party in order to share your voice?  Most of the protests and rallies around women’s issues DO include men, trans and cis.  Is it that big a deal to you if a few don’t?

i guess i can accept a women’s only space if there is always a corresponding trans*/queer only space (but what are the chances of that ever happening?).  it still doesn’t seem quite right to me, because trans* men and queer people also have important experiences from living as or being treated as women.

What disturbs me here is that you seem to believe that women’s spaces  need your acceptance or permission in order to exist despite you seemingly not being a woman.  And what happens if we don’t get your permission?  Will you start an internet petition like the one that sparked this original post asking for dyke march to make a special exception to include trans men but not cis men?  Will you apply political pressure to try and shut it down by labeling our women only spaces transphobic?  

Let me ask you, do you apply your criteria in reverse?  Do you argue that every trans*/queer space should have a corresponding trans inclusive women’s space?  Because I know a lot of “trans*/queer” spaces that don’t do a very good job of supporting trans women.  Not to mention that some trans folks are straight.  In fact, many trans women I know - including queer trans women - avoid trans/queer spaces in general because of the high risk of experiencing transmisogyny.  And from my sense we seem to be lacking in trans inclusive women’s spaces much more than we are lacking in trans*/queer spaces.  

Bottom line, though, it’s not a competition.  We can have trans*/queer spaces AND women only spaces.  And I’m not trying to take away trans*/queer spaces from you. I’m just responding to the folks who are trying to take away women only spaces from me.